I didn't want to hijack the Thieves thread so thought I would throw this one up.
I hear it mentioned quite often in an attempt to justify the "good stuff" going to Felucca ruled lands, trying to entice PvM players to venture there all to give more targets for the PK/griefers and more "fun". If you are a PvP player, have the equipment for that, are out hunting other players, really what risk do you have? Your stuff is insured, if you die you can get rezed without penalty, no stat loss that I know of, full town access (not limited to Serpent's Hold). At the most you lose what, bandages which require harvesting wool from a few sheep. So really where is the risk for the reward you get from killing a PvM player who has been out hunting for some time and taking what ever they gained from their hard work?
At this point, I see no penalty. Shoot, you can even enter into the PvM event (which I find ironic since so many PKers rant against the PvM players and their desire for "easy mode"). Really, you can stoop so low as to join in on the PvM event?
Don't get me wrong, one of the many good things about this server is the balance between lands under Trammel and Felucca rules. Plenty of room for everyone to play as they want. I just find it interesting the constant spouting of "risk vs reward" and the risk seems really to be all one sided. How many times have I heard people say in chat that PKers will wait at the champion spawn until a group finishes, come in, take what they can and ride off. Where was the risk for them?
Perhaps there are penalties I am not aware of? If so, please enlighten me.
The risk vs reward concept concern the PvM players, not the PKs: You want a bigger reward, you take the risk of being the target of a PK since you're in a pvp territory, that's what it meant. No need to answer the rest of your post as it is based on a misunderstood concept.
As for the champion spawns, tracking, detecting hidden and reveal were introduced for a reason.
Enticed by the double mining rate I ventured to Delucca on the fel side so I could mine in the safety of the guardzone. 5 attempts on my life later I decided I had enough ore. I asked them on the way out "Why do you try so hard?"
One fellow died 3 times trying to kill me. First he used a purple potion. Then tried to use purple potion and his bow. Then the two and his pet. Shortly after I was assaulted by another scoundrel in wraithform who tried to painspike me.... He died, but right after another one popped out with a flamestrike. Of course I popped heal.
Seems like harmless fun mostly. But I must say that a lot of softies must venture there if they thought all those weak tactics would kill me. Though on a flip side if all of them hit me at once, I would be toast :) Next time I'll insure my luck suit, although I don't want to seem like a sissy.
for a pvm'er in a pvp facet, they can greatly reduce any 'risk' by just insuring their shit, so ok they die, big woop if they are insured they dont loose nuffin cept a minute walking back to a healer lol. if u do a champ use a bag of sending and soon as champ dies hide, and send scrolls back to the bank or something. like if u take the risk of going to pvp facet and you dont insure ur stuff, you deserve to loose it lol
QuoteThe risk vs reward concept concern the PvM players, not the PKs: You want a bigger reward, you take the risk of being the target of a PK since you're in a pvp territory, that's what it meant. No need to answer the rest of your post as it is based on a misunderstood concept.
Ok, I will make is simple since reading the post is too much for you. What is
your risk? You are getting a reward? Shouldn't you be risking also?
Quotefor a pvm'er in a pvp facet, they can greatly reduce any 'risk' by just insuring their shit, so ok they die, big woop if they are insured they dont loose nuffin cept a minute walking back to a healer lol. if u do a champ use a bag of sending and soon as champ dies hide, and send scrolls back to the bank or something. like if u take the risk of going to pvp facet and you dont insure ur stuff, you deserve to loose it lol
When I go to a pvp facet, I take my bankstone. Be it resource gathering, hunting what ever, anything I get I dump in my bank. And yea, EVERYTHING is insured. Shoot, on my crafter I even insure the apron and shoes I wear just so when they open the corpse, there is nothing. 600gp to know they will not profit, it is well worth it. I have never actually even seen anyone when mining in Fel but some day, maybe.
My point is one side takes risk for the reward. The other side risks nothing that I can see for the reward.
i suppose the risk of pk' in fel lands, is not knowing who or how good your target is lol you might think your about to merk sum nub then they turn around and mess u up, or there is like 4 of their friends stealthed nearby lol the only risk on either side really is the risk of loosing about 2k insurance money and a bag of regs which u can earn back in like 5 seconds anyway. so really if you insure ur stuff whether ur a pvp or pvm'er the only real risk is about 5k in insurance/regs + a 2 minute wait on help/helpstuck to get back to an ank lol
it would appear from my observations that there is a greater risk of getting a bruised ego more than anything on pandora :P (yall kno who u r)
FINALLY someone brought this up. This and (shimmering hiryu) are the only things that bother me about this shard!
PVP is amazing, its the reason to play UO. BUT what made the pvp so great was, its was not a pointless frag fest like counter strike, WoW, Age of Conan, Guildwars, ANY other game out there today. HERE is why:
1. Ability to loot.
2. Can be done almost anywhere.
3. and the most important one... RISK vs REWARD.
Now when WE (real uo players) speak of Risk vs Reward, it is meant that the decision about initiating battle with someone was thought out! For example... im a blue strolling along and see another blue farming or whatnot... now you would decide let by gones be by gones and be defensive... OR decide the risk of TURING RED was worth it. And here is the problem.... WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE OF BEING A RED or BLUE on this shard? NOTHING. (dont be lame and say color.) REDS do not have to stay to fel faucet areas... they can use towns freely(trammel), they can even join PVM events.... wtf?
What made pvp so sweet was the balance and choice... Is not being able to go to trammel, or CONSTANTLY having to fight for my life worth grieving this poor minor? Cuz in my day there was BLUE vs RED action everywhere, it was awesome. Reds had to stick together to survive as did blues. anyways what im saying is Kon PLEASE consider making the decision of pking an actual decision.... thats all.
Still looks like enticing pvmers to entertain the pvpers to me.
Not hard to attack a loot hunter who is occupied, his GD fighting something and taking constant heals .. and wearing a luck suit so his loot merits the 'risk'. Cool, I get to make some fun for a 'killer'.
Where's the risk vs reward, however, for a murderer going to a tram shard? None; they get to be fashionably correct in front of a bank and bling like Britney.
Not botherin' me but if it's -supposed- to be a mix of pvp/pvm you can't just give pvm'er 1 day of week, chopped in half (on/off) and call it a Trammie Tuesday to make it 'balanced', especially during the work week.
If a 'killer' wants to track someone in a luck suit then they should have to do the hard work and use their skills given to them. This is only making stuff more difficult for the pvmers.
Not bitchin', just sayin' ..
Next week a fully Automatic PVP Tourny goes in that will go multiple times a day.
Also will have a automatic Ice Block event where Bucs Den goes crazy.
Oh one more thing.. Shimmering bothers me too, but it pays the expensive server bills. Also a Shimmering only really owns monsters, not players. (this was changed a bit last patch)
You guys are very silly. You say PK has no risk, that's not true, he can die also. Maybe he is less likely to die because has pvp suit and not a Luck suit. But guess what! His reward is also much smaller. He gets few K from killing you. Even if he kills your monster he doesn't wear luck suit. And your risk is very small. You only lose item insurance and some regs. You can get phat loots so your reward is high.
Ya, I guess I had a 'tone' when I posted and I apologize for that. Every time I tried to take advantage of the Tuesday thing in Tokuno the stone was red and that was a little annoying. We have two places to hunt in interim so that's not a lot of option because the chance of getting whacked is pretty d*mn good considering.
I don't have any beef with the reds or what they do. Quite a few of my friends are red themselves and they're friended to my castle, (they) leaving me room to even afk while they use my rune books. PVM is a necessary evil for me to stock my vendors which are my primary concern being more merchant minded in UO. That's kinda where my conflict lies, being protective of my stuff and how I get it. (Ya, I can 'send' stuff and insure but I'm not doing that with everything I find and don't care to have to.)
Still don't see your point fully, though, on the aggressor being at risk so much when I see so much [c about res-kill 'spam' to get past everyone's insurance cost. There's a pretty broad line between being a pvp'er and being a d*ck and some seem to feel it's too narrow instead. Hell, those dudes don't even have their luck suits to protect them half the time lol
So, ya, when stealth is being nerfed in favor of the PK I feel like saying something, even if that 'tone' yesterday wasn't cool. Again, apologies to Kon and those others who felt it may have been directed toward them.
Looking forward to the PvP events, I wonder what they are going to be like......? :)
QuoteOh one more thing.. Shimmering bothers me too, but it pays the expensive server bills. Also a Shimmering only really owns monsters, not players. (this was changed a bit last patch)
I don't really wanna coment on the rest of the replies to this, so I'll avoid making a new thread to point something in this thread: the hiryus were said to be "fixed", doing less damage to players, but I still got owned by shimmering hiryus like 3 or 4 times after the patch when i withered a satyr and one was provoked on me, or w/e. :?
QuotePostby Astax » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:37 am
You guys are very silly. You say PK has no risk, that's not true, he can die also. Maybe he is less likely to die because has pvp suit and not a Luck suit. But guess what! His reward is also much smaller. He gets few K from killing you. Even if he kills your monster he doesn't wear luck suit. And your risk is very small. You only lose item insurance and some regs. You can get phat loots so your reward is high.
I have to disagree with this. If you are out to pk, you only have your minimum requirements and of course everything you have, if possible, is insured. So you run up, kill someone while they are fighting a mob and loot everything they have gained in the last two hours or so of hunting. Where exactly is your risk? If we manage to kill you instead, we get nothing except of course, you coming and trying again.
What exactly are you risking? Death? Ok, 600gp each item insured. We risk 600gp each item plus everything we have gained while hunting.
I am fine with pvp, I have a bank stone and throw everything I get that is any good. I just get tired of all the "risk vs reward" justification to try and encourage pvm to go to Fel based lands when I see no risk on the pvp side.
aailah ... i told gizmo about the shimmer still being pvp uber right after the last update, and my understanding is, it'll get fixed shortly ... i think the poor bugger is working hard to get the pvp event system done, so the twits who think 'all kill' with a shimmer on a red is pvp will still have fun fer another week or so
Why would you have 2 hours worth of loot on you? I don't get it... Bag of sending maybe? If you carry so much loot on you, and get killed for it, I can't really see how you can blame anyone but yourself.
QuoteNew postby Astax » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:02 pm
Why would you have 2 hours worth of loot on you? I don't get it... Bag of sending maybe? If you carry so much loot on you, and get killed for it, I can't really see how you can blame anyone but yourself.
And yet you still have not listed a valid risk. I don't get that... Show me your risk to justify your reward which is the entire purpose of this thread.
I agree, there should in fact be a difference between the reds and the blues. Having reds not being able to visit blue towns was a good and a bad thing. I wont talk about the bad but the good was: reds had to stay on their toes in fel, red on red fighting was some of the best pvp out there, but also it put like minded people togeather forming strong red/blue (pk/apk) guilds. In the end it made for great battles at the hot spots.
But after a while every good blue player ended up going red anyways, over the years the balance of power shifted impossibly towards the reds, at least on all the osi shards Ive seen. Thats when you got 5-10 blues hugging the yew gates surrounded by reds in stealth, shooting popshots at each other, not fun and not good pvp.
But, a penalty for being red should be there, something to separate the two. Id say making reds attackable in blue towns or having them open for stealing could be a good thing. Blues having to keep on their toes in fel, reds having to do the same in tram. Balance?
We've all questioned: What's the risk for the Red, but what about what is their reward? Others will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but the reward isn't great: Reg bags, bandages, dingy uninsured stuff, unless you find a fat cow that didn't donate for a bankstone.
How often do Reds find these loot cows? On the darker side, why does a previous poster in this thread insinuate that they deserve it if they don't bank their stuff pronto via bankstone or bag of sending? That borders on saying the woman deserved her rape. It's too easy for the oppressor to degrade the victim. Make no mistake, those getting pk'd are victims.
My guess is that the reward is so infrequently good, that farming artifacts and champ spawns yourself produces better rewards than trying to catch out those who haven't insured/banked their good loot. Is this true? If it is, that means the reward is something else, and likely, it's the thrill of the hunt. If that is the reward, there really isn't any downside except to their 'pride', and having to re-equip potions if they happen to attack the wrong party.
So, that's my question, What is the Reward of being a Red? Maybe that will help define the risk?
You are getting off tangent here. Tossing out Hyperbole and such really doesn't help. Yes the player deserves it, because that situation can be mitigated 100%. If they take the prudent course of action by protecting their assets. The PK is not responsible for you not protecting your earnings. His reward really only scales with your willingness to take risk for higher profit margins. With bankstones and bless reg bags the risk goes down to almost nothing!
QuoteYou are getting off tangent here. Tossing out Hyperbole and such really doesn't help. Yes the player deserves it, because that situation can be mitigated 100%. If they take the prudent course of action by protecting their assets. The PK is not responsible for you not protecting your earnings. His reward really only scales with your willingness to take risk for higher profit margins. With bankstones and bless reg bags the risk goes down to almost nothing!
I love that you keep posting yet still have no good answer as to what you are risking. Don't say death as we know with insurance and no stat loss or penalty that is a joke on the PKs side and the odds are on your side of a win due to the equipment and preparation.
As for the reward PKs are getting, apparently it isn't the loot as I guess everyone uses bags of sending and bank stones. So basically, you are running around, trying to catch people unaware or involved with another battle so you can slaughter them to
not get much loot? So it is bragging rights? "Hey, I killed this PVM!! Yea, he was half dead and in the middle of a battle but I rule!". Not bragging rights? The challenge and thrill of a battle? Then how about giving them an option of preparing or better yet, how about the duel system? No? So what then, the ability to screw with someones game with no risk or penalty. Yea, that sounds like a winner.
Sorry, don't mean to lump all PKs in to the same group. I have hunted with some excellent reds. They can be an great group of players and a lot of fun. But then, that was back in the old days when there was a risk of going red.
There is risk and there is reward people are just blind. The reward is the greater quality of items that can be obtained in pvp faucets. The risk is being vulnerable to anyone who chooses to attack.
Now the pks also have a risk too because they are also vulnerable to anyone who chooses to attack but no one has attempted to take the fight to the pk's yet. You are busy complaining about not having an easy mode to get all the items you want on this forum. Most of the best items also come from bod rewards or crafted items as well which can all be obtained in tram.
I don't think we are blind. I think more likely we just have different opinions. You think as a PK, in your equipment for PvP you are risking as much as us, in our luck suit and carrying what ever we have gained so far in our adventuring that we haven't throwing into the bank yet. I disagree. We are at a stand still in this.
The server will continue, Reds will do what and go where they want. PvM players will put up with the "encouragement" to hunt in Fel based lands or they wont. If things go as some want with anything good only being in the Fel based lands, I am concerned for the population of the server. Obviously there is concern that not enough PvM players go to Fel based lands, thus the "encouragement". I am not a doom-and-gloom type of person. I hope it all works out as I have spent more in donations on this server in the last few months than I usually spend on a pay server in a year. By donating, I hope to contribute to the longevity of a very fun and so far, balanced server.
And I love how it always goes back to "easy mode". Like the PKs want a challenge so they attack while others are involved in a battle or when they outnuber? Or better yet, rez kill? Yea, what a challenge. That's definitely "hard mode".
QuoteAnd I love how it always goes back to "easy mode". Like the PKs want a challenge so they attack while others are involved in a battle or when they outnuber? Or better yet, rez kill? Yea, what a challenge. That's definitely "hard mode".
I would like to change the last sentence to be
SOME PKs. Like I said earlier, I have hunted with reds before. Some are great but you can't ignore the comments in [c concerning the acts of others.
There is no stand still you are just ignorant to realize that there is more to fel than loot. There are rewards of killing other people and gaining points in pvp and rewards for killing opposing faction for rank as well. Loot is a bonus too and there is so much fel lands that the about 160 players we have on this server could hunt and never run into someone their entire day. I hunt in fel all day on my blue and honestly I rarely will encounter another person trying to kill the same things I am. I go days without seeing anyone else in fel.
And like I said the best gear in this game does not come from fel but it is crafted with runics or craftable artifacts. All of which can be obtained without ever going into fel.
I second the statement that most of the BEST gear will come from crafting with Runic crafting tools, craftable recipes from heartwood or britain/vesper donations.
So everyone that wants to get "geared up" start bodding ffs. Throw on your PvP suit (which you crafted yourself) and jump into the Dojo/mines while the stones are green and get the rest of your Tokuno arties. Maybe even have some fun running around with reds and blues trying to pk/not be pked. Just try and ENJOY
QuoteThere is no stand still you are just ignorant to realize that there is more to fel than loot. There are rewards of killing other people and gaining points in pvp and rewards for killing opposing faction for rank as well.
QuoteNow the pks also have a risk too because they are also vulnerable to anyone who chooses to attack but no one has attempted to take the fight to the pk's yet. You are busy complaining about not having an easy mode to get all the items you want on this forum. Most of the best items also come from bod rewards or crafted items as well which can all be obtained in tram
Can you tell me where I said I want easy mode? Or where I claimed there was nothing to do in fel based lands but go for loot? Or where I said I was interested in PvP which is pretty much everything you listed as things to do in Fel?
It all started as a simple question, what do the PvPs risk in their play style. After several responses from both sides, I didn't really see anything that was truly a risk on the PvP side. You guys are the ones spouting the Risk vs Reward mantra after all.
Sorry, I was trying to end this nicely in that we have different opinions. I am not impressed with your argument. I can put up with children in the game trying to grief other players because they can. I can put up with the same on the forums. Doesn't hurt me... :D
Have fun.
QuotePostby Articus » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:07 pm
I second the statement that most of the BEST gear will come from crafting with Runic crafting tools, craftable recipes from heartwood or britain/vesper donations.
I have to say, enjoying crafting as much, if not more than PvM, I like the fact that some of the best stuff is crafted. But then, crafting has always been such a strong part of UO where as most other MMOs it is more of an after thought.
lol After reading all of this I had to ..
Not saying nothin' but laughing my @$$ off!
(http://img5.glowfoto.com/images/2010/07/25-1406361132M.jpg)
When I think of risk vs. reward I think of Fel having normally harder mosters to fight, also the chance of a possible pk encounter or bumping into a enemy faction on the route to or from your destination. I don't consider "you survived a camping pk's attack while trying to fight an already tough monster spawn" a creditable risk factor. Many pk's thrive on the pvm players because we are "normally" easy prey. We are usually using "monster equipment or luck" and in a mindset to better up on the monster not a monster and a pk poking us in the back with a deadly poisoned kyrss while we are getting already punished by say an Paragon such and such. This is weak tactics and only shows that you are not a fan of pvp, you enjoy ruining your victims gametime. There truely is no risk for the Pk. I guarantee if Pk's lost stats or had to sit in their houses as ghost for days like in the old days alot on this server would chance fast. But, since Pk's are free to travel through trammel and fellucia without a true fear of their status it is always going to be onesided as to who truely has the "risk" factor in this system. I would personally like to salute the Pk's who actually play the role of an honorable Pk and hunt people in open ground, also for the ones that don't wait for you to be tangled up with a truely nasty beast before sinking their weapon into your back. I believe Factions were developed to try and give the pvp players more room to assault other players. I honestly feel this server should lean more towards rewarding the "true pvp's" through faction battles rather than always forcing pvm players to watch their backs during a long or challenging battle. (Perhaps make faction campaigns to control cities in trammel or fellucia with nice rewards for the controllers)I mean really, I run through the old towns these days and don't even see a soul in them.
I have asked that the staff please consider maybe adding the champ spawns to trammel facets also or completely so that pvm players have a better chance at some of the rewards that can only be given by them. Afterall, If it is safe for Pk's to safely walk through trammel then they too would benefit from this change. It would make it more balanced for all players of pvp and pvm styles. There would still be the interest of going to fellucia and trying to reap rewards of a "harder" spawning system, but would also make it to where everyone could actually "enjoy" the challenge of doing the champs spawn without the fear of "ok, barracoon just popped wheres the pk's gonna come from?" I'm just asking for some balance between pvp and pvm. Having everything in this game that is actually worth trying for camped by pk's all the time is not showing much love for your pvm supporters. Many of us love every aspect of this server except for the "no true risk for pk" exceptions you have installed. Personally I feel a champ spawn or Paragon can be tough enough to handle without a deadly poisoned dagger getting shoved in my back. So why not share the love given to the pvp players to your pvm players? Give us an opportunity to have some reward for all the hard work we too put into playing this game. All we ask is that we can enjoy some of the fruits of the better challenges without the fear of dying everytime we even get near a rewarding spawn zone. Sorry, I know its long and drawn but needed to be said. Thanks for reading.
It just got even harder with the new stealth system, before if you got jumped the pk had to be quick and if he failed you could stealth and be on your way. Now you got a time limit before you can stealth and if you get revealed its game over. I was amazed at how much less survivability I have now.
it really makes it next to impossible when you can only get decent drops, or ps's in fel, and everytime you try and do so, you get disrupted by wither spamming pks right at the end or w/e so they can finish off the boss and ruin an hour or so worth of work, it really makes trying almost pointless. if you ever want any competition in pvp, or even a good pvp base of more than 10 ppl, id suggest killing eachother for a while and leaving the limited spawns be unless your going to run them yourselves.
You realize that champion spawns were introduced for the main purpose of promoting pvp in felucia?
I think what some people feel is that PVM'ers are promoted as a PVP'ers fun in the profitable facets. I don't have any disrespect for any of the PVP'ers, save for one, but I kinda value my time off from work and don't feel like being the 'server meat' in my limited 'fun time'.
Ya, I'm on a lot but that's usually afk time (for the sake of the shard's player count because I actually care about that but even that's changed and my dutiful voting too since the stealth changes) while I'm at work, over an hour away and in another state. That doesn't give me much time to play and less time to care if someone wants to be a jack@$$ at my expense, using an ingame way of robbing my real time playing. Just how I feel about it.
On OSI you cant even do a champ any more for the same reason, doesnt matter what time of day or which champ, some guild is going to show up and roll you right at the end. So you got to post guards at the entrance but that barely works most of the time. Best way to fix the problem is to auto "close" the champ when its 50-75% done, nobody new goes in at that point. The reds still get a shot at the scrolls but the but you get a chance to get away or a fair fight if u want it.
I like domos idea, that would actually be half decent, atleast you would have time to prepare to defend your ps's after you kill the champ spawn or w/e before actually having to do so. not with 38 health and in rat form deadly poisoned being wither spammed to death. lol
Here is a direct quote from UOGuide that talks about champion spawns:
Champion spawns were re-introduced during Publish 16 as a way to reinvigorate the dead Felucca landscape. The purpose was to "Establish an area where non-consensual PvP can thrive for a significant number of UO's players" and "Provide meaningful and compelling rewards for players that successfully adventure in the specified areas." The system was a smashing success drawing hundreds of players per shard to Felucca, many who vowed never to go back and some who had never ventured there before.
Just because PVM'ers are trying to solo or 2 man spawns and get pked does not mean they should be changed to make them easier to do. Just do them with more people next time.
That was said in reference to "osi" shards with 1500+ people, not 200... and nobody's saying make them easier, im not atleast. but i do think domos' idea is good, after you get like 2/3 of the red skulls up in a champ spawn, the area should be closed until the champ is dead at the least, then if the pks want to wait and come in after, and have atleast a half assed fair fight, have at'er. it would make it more worth while to go because you know youre not going to sit there forever only to get ganked right at the end and not even get to finish. i personally think a fair fight is far more fun then ganking, or being ganked, even if i lose.
I personally think closing off a champ spawn so far into it is pointless. You know when you go to a champ spawn that you have that chance of being raided. That is part of it and that is part of the fight. Closing the champ spawn down would end the fighting for champ spawns and the fun. If your scared of being raided then you need to go at non peak times or go with several people who can hold off the raiding party. Fighting in the star room has it's moments but for the most part it's not that exciting. Why would you want something designed for pvp to be trammied out? Even if you dont like pvp you can still get champs done man. There are not a whole lot of Reds running around to come in and kill you at the end.
If you are complaining about not being able to complete a spawn on a shard with as many players as we have now then you are blind to how impossible it is on OSI to do the same. Fel is supposed to be dangerous because of non-consensual PvP. It should not be made trammy friendly because they simply can't do some of the things that other people can in fel. Go get a huge group of trammys and hunt the pk's for a change if you want.
I agree to that. OSI Fel is as impossible as it gets to do a champ spawn without some kinda help. It's just what I've grown to expect of that and I don't have a problem with it; I wasn't aware others did but .. lol
I think I'll sum up how I see the pvp Vs. pvm as I see it with this: pvp'ers (not all but a lot) are in the same damn faction, telling me who they prefer to fight. Take a look in front of the dojo at the pk houses too sometime. That's where pvm'ers try to get a few arties. Hell, our work weeks (mine being app 12 hour days) don't allow us a Tokuno Tuesday, especially chopped into an hour here and there. -IF- I had a Tuesday off I still have to do primary care for my grandparents who are pushing 90, running them to doctors, physicians, getting their meals made up, administering meds, on and on.
Not saying I do any more that anyone else but Tuesday just doesn't happen for me. Not tryin to b*tch either: just maybe not the shard I need to be on.
All we need to do to solve this problem is recruit members to a PKK (PK Killers) guild and have our own fun. Turn the tables so to speak. It would be rather exciting. Anyone interested, pm me!
i think you're still all missing the point that, unless they are on a gank warpath, the reds are all hanging out in insula .. tuff ta pkk them there :lol:
Reds being free and clear in trammel is a whole other problem, you end up with a situation where they always get to pick their fights. I was on one shard where if you pkd someone they get something like 24 hrs to come after you anywhere, so no bank camping for you cause one or more of the victims may jump you and return the favor. It was a very nice system, the more you killed others the more people had a free shot at you, the more you killed one person, the longer that person had a free shot.
If reds were not allowed in trammel then special coding of some crazy sorts must be implemented for reds to allow them into certain trammel zones that you can't even recall into. The PVM event is in a tram zone, some of the dueling arenas are in a tram zone. Players would not be able to safely duel reds if they could not interact with them in a tram zone as well. Also reds could not duel each other safely if there were banned from tram zones.
Dang, forgot about red safety. Oh, well. Maybe there's no solution.
You think it would be fair if a blue dueled a red in a fel town then called all his buddies to where the red will exit the duel and jump him? Same for a blue if they dueled not in a guard zone. Having one sanctuary type town allows for interaction with reds and blues for both individuals safety.
QuoteAlso reds could not duel each other safely if there were banned from tram zones.
why?? because another red might come and try and gank you while your engaged in an epic battle with someone?? hmmmm kinda sounds familiar
Well, if we really wanted to refer back to OSI UO, he or she could make a blue alt to duel with, couldn't they?
Seeing Pks at trammel banks is really a joke, but I guess with some time gm`s will at least make town guards able to autokill any red at trammel guarded zones.
Also a good idea to turn the risk part of the equation to the other side would be to set some sort of reward for every pks "head", the more kills that char has the more things you could receive in exchange (pcoins maybe ;) ).
yeah, like some kinda bounty system. that would be pretty wicked, it would also add to the effect of being a "red". i would almost think it would be sweet if factions could control towns, that would also draw more attention away from other areas for the more skilled players. and also open up another avenue for the shard, im sure if there were actual faction wars and whatnot more people would be inclined to try it and likely stick around.
Yeah, and also it would encourage players to became "counter-pks" :P
But on the other hand exploits could be easily made to this system.. maybe not with some limits like only blue players can kill reds, they cant be on the same guild and cant belong to the same Ip number even if its from a different account.
It seems hard, but if in some time in the future it could be possible, it would help a lot to balance the risk situation, at least IMHO.
And you would like to trade your suit in between chars and get all the same PS's for your blue as well to be equal? What I am saying is with a sanctuary type town reds could duel each other, make trades with blues and everything. Banning them from all of tram means that people could never interact in a friendly like way with reds without being.
There is a dueling feature on this server for a reason, so that people can pvp against each other one on one without the fear of losing items or insurance. All major pvpers are red too and in factions so trying to get them to behave and duel each other in a fel town will never happen.
Well, it worked on OSI, right? And that's where you were taking us back to in your references.
OSI did not have a special dueling pit feature which this shard does. I am not saying this shard is like OSI in any way but that OSI had the same risk vs reward systems where champion spawns were only in fel and did not tailor to the needs of trammies. OSI also has tots deactivated where this shard still allows people to collect them under special circumstances. Maybe that should be deactivated too by your reasoning?
Everyone is free to have their own opinions of course, but i really dont understand why some people want to segregate pandoras community.. :?
Not used to someone disagreeing, eh? lol So I guess you want to have it both ways for your 'reds'? No inconvenience at all?
OSI did, in fact, cater to pvmers by creating Tram. Never did I say they had dueling pits but I did say, in some way, they didn't cater to the needs of reds by making things easier for their outfit of choice or their particular safety.
And now OSI is overrun with reds, doing champs there is impossible unless you bring a small army. And its not so much the being pkd for the scrolls thats really the problem, its the having a kill stolen from you that is. Ive had this happen with medusa and slasher, someone runs up and just kind of joins in and gets equal rights to the loot with enough damage, and what can you do? No, stop, wtf... At least if the champ is closed, you get to kill the boss, get your scrolls and try to make it out. Or you could stay and try to loot the champ, take off and get nothing but scrolls or stay and get other items. Either way the red still get a shot at the scroll, its just not a complete cluster funk for the champ team.
And as far as the other system, I didnt explain it enough. If a red kills someone blue, that blue player and ONLY that player gets one free shot at them in town. The free shot has a time limit, if the red kills the same blue character again within the time limit, the blue now has 2 free shots in town and the timer is reset. If the blue kills the red once, one of the free shots is used up, the timer is reset. The reds can still go to trammel towns but they have to watch their backs for the players they have killed within x number days, nobody else could attack them in town but two or more of the victim players could team up and go after the red as a group... Think of it as a mob justice system, you wrong enough people and nobody will stop them when they come after you in town.
DisclaimerI really wish we had an 'edit' feature so I wouldn't have to make another 'reply'.
Really, DM, I have respect for your opinion and have read many of them here, in many cases where I've not read everything else. That's kind of why I wanted to pick your brain here and feel a little surprised by your reasoning. So if I seem like I'm jacking with you it's with respect, even if I seem a little irked.
What I actually had to sayQuote from: "Deadmau5"I am not saying this shard is like OSI in any way but that OSI had the same risk vs reward systems where champion spawns were only in fel and did not tailor to the needs of trammies.
Not even in (OSI) Fel were the safety or concerns of reds catered to on OSI. One group did, however, and one group we really don't see here. Those were the
role players who made RP towns and RP guilds. Almost every one of the guilds had an abundance of them and they bought up properties for outrageous prices which were next to one another, making the 'towns' themselves. Not every RP guild would allow PK entry but most would and many of the RP 'taverns' too.
Quote from: "Deadmau5"Also reds could not duel each other safely if there were banned from tram zones.
What I find striking in your reply was you expressed concern over other reds interfering in what you like to do, which is sometimes dueling. Well, being blue is the same thing and why some of us are expressing our opinions on the matter. We deal with it all the time from -every- red and even the blues who are about to become grey or red on us in what we like to do, which is hunt these game 'monsters', retarded 2D graphics which haven't evolved fully from the Commodore 64 'sprite' graphics. Kind of a therapy for some of us after work and I am sure you can relate to that in the things you like to do being therapeutic.
Hell, on OSI you had to be clever to even use a bank if you were red: they didn't cater to reds. If you wanted to be a murderer you had to deal with consequences.
My final point, incase you don't want to read all of that lolOk, so maybe this isn't OSI. I know it's not but you refer to it to make a case and one I can't see. Ya, I think it's great reds have place here but diminishing 'blue' privilege for the sake of 'red' convenience is what we're talking about. 'Privilege' like our skills such as stealth which are being weakened, what we use to try to bypass you guys who should be using your tracking anyway if you want to kill us. Why should it be easier for you to kill us and we not have a say about it? Those are your lands, basically, right? Why aren't you adapting and why are we losing the ability to?
Did any of you guys play before there was no tram?? I mean seriously it's always the same argument about the blue people not getting to do the things they want to in fel without the fear of being pked. That is why its FEL. Now I will admit that maybe the TOT drops being fel based might be aggravating but outside of that I don't see why there is such a big fight over this. You guys are basically saying let's take the fun away from people who like to pvp so noone has to worry about being killed. I think that sucks. Reds/blues or whoever have the same amount of risk that anyone does in fel. I see red characters in fel hunting monsters and trying to get loot just the same as blues. Both types of characters can be attacked during their hunt right? Both are risking insurance money or the loot you dont have time to insure right? So what is the argument cuz I am lost. The stealthing situation isnt cool but it has been addressed and they are gonna work on it so let them have time to do that. I have been on this shard 2 months and I have played OSI a long time. I dont see them catering to pvp players at all really here. I think it's great that reds are allowed in town. I know there used to be a few downfalls by being red and not being in tram towns but jeez there are only 150 people on the shard. Why make reds just stay in fel with so few of people?
i think the argument is their isnt a penalty for going red besides no virtues and not buying from npcs.. i think blues should be freely able to attck murders in tram myself.. and murders should be able to defend themelves.. it would make fun times in insula.. the lynch mob comes..
i think there like 2 main problems on this shard (the same that are on lots of others too).
1) i think there are lots of players that like pvp and want to do pvp but they simply cant when new to the shard. since aos you need gear to compete. at least semi decent gear.
in my opinion there should be at least tokuno OR ilshenar areas tram rules.. so newbies can aquire minor artis to start pvp.
2) easy champ spawns will always be raided.. thats no problem in itself. the problem is that those guild who raid the champs dominate in gear and skill anyways =) its kind of a monopoly..
i dont think this needs to be changed..
just change the acquisition of minor arties so new players are able to compete.
btw..
is it true that collecting 10 smaller tots wont let you choose the greater tot? i dont get what thats about.. it just makes the game more repetitive and boring.. no point in it really
Quote1) i think there are lots of players that like pvp and want to do pvp but they simply cant when new to the shard. since aos you need gear to compete. at least semi decent gear.
in my opinion there should be at least tokuno OR ilshenar areas tram rules.. so newbies can aquire minor artis to start pvp.
that'd be awesome, probably relatively easy to change too.. because the way it stands now, its pretty damn tough.
I personally hate getting Player Killed, but I look forward to the challenge more than any other aspect of this game. I go into Felucca hoping for better money, better loot, better resources, and a good solid beating from Lord Storey or Klone. It happens to me a ridiculous amount. One might expect me to rant about it- they've robbed me blind possibly seven times in three days, but I'm never going to say PKing is bad. I, in fact, think that anyone going into Felucca is essentially asking for a fight.
I think that Player killing could be improved, however. Simply by making it possible for any blue, law-abiding player to attack any red or gray character in any trammel city would make things perfect. it's how being a criminal works, for pete's sakes. If you commit a crime, you do hard time- or, in this case, get ganked.
As for new players getting artifacts, it's already possible to get a sweet set of virtue armor in the anti-virtue dungeons. However, new players eventually get Grandmaster skills, and that combined with some decent hot keys can be lethal. I've made a pK run from me more than once (although they came back and ganked me) and know it's a matter of skill and experience. You can overcome their armor if you use armor ignore; their magery book's extra damage wont work if you drain their mana, and they can't chase you if you put up an energy field.
But eff the retarded "wouldst thou flee in the heat of battle?!?" message. That crap is ridiculous in all way, shapes, and forms. the only way I could ever appreciate it is if only the person who INITIATED the fight couldn't run. Joe Blow miner might need to leave, but since a band of PK's are after him ,he can't. Bullsh*t!
QuoteBut eff the retarded "wouldst thou flee in the heat of battle?!?" message. That crap is ridiculous in all way, shapes, and forms. the only way I could ever appreciate it is if only the person who INITIATED the fight couldn't run. Joe Blow miner might need to leave, but since a band of PK's are after him ,he can't. Bullsh*t!
/agree
QuoteI think that Player killing could be improved, however. Simply by making it possible for any blue, law-abiding player to attack any red or gray character in any trammel city would make things perfect. it's how being a criminal works, for pete's sakes. If you commit a crime, you do hard time- or, in this case, get ganked.
i can second this. i once played on a fel only shard (for a long time) where reds could enter all towns without being guardwhacked but blues could attack them (they could fight back after being attacked)
i think this is a nice solution cause reds always had to look for some blues making ready to gank the other way round :)
wanted to say this in my last post but forgot.. thx for adding this Balithustrious !
^^^ exactly, people want pvp lets give them pvp! Its just that they want to pvp but they also want to always have the element of surprise too, chill in complete safety, go out kill some people and return to the complete safety before anyone could hunt them down. If you cant see something wrong with that you are probably one of them...
This thread is 99% pointless.
However, I would like to know if this flee message really affects players who get attacked, because if it does I would certainly contest it as a terrible idea. PvP in UO has always been the best because you always had 3 choices: Fight back, heal, or run. If you take out the ability to run away from a fight,t hen it quickly devolves to a battle of who has more on their side. It becomes as lame as WoW PvP, where it's hard for skill to triumph over pure number advantage, and thus is largely pointless.
It wouldn't work, because a blue could still help another blue without attacking the red. The red wouldn't be able to attack other blues who are helping the aggressor.
Nevermind, just thought about it. When a blue attacks a red, they could be flagged with some status and if another blue performs a beneficial act, they would become flagged too.
Make this happen. :)
Why? So the red doesn't get ganked? lol
Yes. Why would a red go into town, if they knew there were a gang of blues waiting and could only attack one of them? That would be pointless. It's not like they can buy anything in towns. If they could attack the aggressor's back, they might go looking for a fight.
Maybe there could be some sort of a "reward" for reds going to key trammel town spots, kind of like blues having a reward for going to fel. In that case both have a reason and a danger of going to enemy territory, talk about balance.
lol.. reward for reds is to be able to enter tram towns..
this balance issue is crap anyways.. if you are PK and just hunt PVM characters in the usual spots you will always kill them cause of the gear they wear (luck lrc ..)
there is NO RISK for a pk.. at least if he's not totally retarded.
i really like pvp and pking is part of the game too.. like griefing is. the single problem is just that there are no consequences for people going red here. it's always easy to kill some dudes and go red but handling the murder status should require some skill. not just recalling to insula bank and dropping off all loot.. that's just lame.
There isn't supposed to be a risk for pk's. There job is to make your life hell when you enter FEL, so you don't farm artifacts. Get over it.
This is where I see it differently, I see a PK as an outlaw and as an outlaw they should be hunted. And there should be a reward for killing an outlaw based on their kill count. With the current system we have there is almost no chance of catching one off guard...
agreed domos
Have some friends hiding and in stealth while you hunt. What looked like easy prey, just turned into a gank.
If you do a champ spawn, have a knight of justice protect you. Duplicate scrolls and will protect from a single pk.
It's not too hard to catch a pk off guard.
Good tip, never thought about the Knight of Justice part.
Killing the PKs isn't the problem, to be sure. If you have a party of players who are skilled and ready for the fight, killing a few PKs can be easy as pie. The fact is, as of now, they literally run through champion spawns looking for players to kill. Every champion spawn. Then they run through the Fan Dancer Dojo, then they go to the Yomatsu mines. This style of play is more than aggravating for people trying to get a few power scrolls of any value. These players will scour PvP facets endlessly, and there's no escape. There needs to be a penalty for being a murderer. Many facets I've played on had the blues-can-gank-reds-in-town rule, and it was fantastic. Reds had to watch their backs and wait for their murderer title to go away before showing their face to humanity.
Player Killers have incentives to hunt players- easy loot, regs, etc.
Players have their incentives to go to fel- champ spawns, etc.
Without some kind of penalty, however, players wont want to go to fel for much longer, and PKs wont have anything to hunt.
I have a solution that as long as everyone works at will fix it.
If everyone starts afk hanging at fel brit bank we that will be your opportunity to gank reds. Ppl will tend to hang out where the majority of others do for the excitement. If everyone starts to hang out at brit bank fel, blues can gank reds and reds can only attack if attacked themselves. Anyone likey?
in theory it sounds fine jerry, but i don't think yer gonna see a red go afk at fel brit bank any sooner then yer gonna see a blue go afk at despise champ spawn :-)
Quotein theory it sounds fine jerry, but i don't think yer gonna see a red go afk at fel brit bank any sooner then yer gonna see a blue go afk at despise champ spawn
i think thats kinda the point, you dont see
most pks outside of insula unless theyre stabbing you in the back while spamming wither and/or fireball lol. it would be a good idea to make brit bank popular again. would bring more balance and give a chance to fight the pks, where a blue or 7 might be able to get a jump on one, rather than the other way around, alllllll the time. :D
Quotein theory it sounds fine jerry, but i don't think yer gonna see a red go afk at fel brit bank any sooner then yer gonna see a blue go afk at despise champ spawn
HAHAH i've seen a blue afk in dspise :] couple times actualy...
But well, i would go hang out in fel brit bank if there wasn't some massive building wrecking visibility near the bank :/