Anyone else feel that the thief class has died?
Once upon a time, thieves packed the streets of banks, sifting through the belongings of bystanders. Then trammel was introduced. That put severe limits on the thief. But still we found our ways to find a pack to snoop here and there.
Then came insurance with the Age of Shadows, and that made the thief virtually extinct. But still, we had our way at times. Champion spawns, and the occasional person in Fel. But therein lies the issue. People are either dead terrified of going to fel areas, use insurance, and/or have nothing on them worth taking.
This limits it to virtually just champion spawns, commonly used dungeons such as Exodus, and Luna stealing (Since Umbra is long since unpopulated, if it ever was here in Pandora). But recently, the Luna thief has received much discrimination, to the point where it was removed all together. The innocent (And not-so-innocent!) can feel safe now, knowing that their packs are secure.
I know most of you feel that this is good. But let's think for a moment. Do we really want another mindless World of Warcraft scheme of PvP, PvM, or GTFO? Thieving is, afterall, a play style. It's about the thrill; which is what anyone plays for.
Some get a thrill from killing players (Or releasing a dragon on an AFK player...). Others get a thrill from Hunting all of the various monsters. Some get a thrill off of peeking through the belongings of others and making off with an item, weaving intricately through the crowds, around buildings, and all sorts of acrobatics to make off with the item.
And the Perma-Grey system made it that much more fun! It made disguises and disguise kits necessary, rather than just a way of robbing without having to worry about receiving many nasty death-threats from victims in a horribly misspelled, not-well-thought-out PM.
So... We've clarified that a valid play-style has been pushed onto the brink of extinction. Now to propose a way to fix it.
Really, there's one good proposition that I have to throw out, and I'm sure others have their own valid proposals to throw in. That would be to allow the theft of insured items ONLY within the Fel ruleset. We would have the same limited grounds, but all the more reason to venture forth into the lands! (Not to mention all the donations for Bank Stones and Item Bless Deeds that would be made!)
Most definitely, that will raise giant red flashing flags to anyone not in support of it already, but again, we must think.
FIRST: When you steal an item from a player, if you die within 2 minutes of the steal (Regardless of what killed you), that item will return to it's rightful owner.
SECOND: You cannot steal equipped items
THIRD: It won't impact anyone outside of the Fel Ruleset (And who really goes there anymore aside from PvP'ers and Thieves anyways?)
FOURTH: It only affects unblessed items within your backpack. (Beetles and Bank stones and Bless Deeds, Oh my!)
Alternatively, we could make theft possible in more locations (Bring back Luna stealing, robbing in select non-pvp facets, dungeons, etc.)
And before you even THINK it, I assure you I have considered the new players! Which is why I also propose immunity from theft and PvP all together for our new players still growing and preparing for the harsh world out there! I propose we completely remodel the "New" status.
We are aware that the New Player Dungeon will only allow players inside if they are 21 days or younger. What's stopping us from modifying that a little further and making it so that new (21 days and younger) players take 0 damage from players and player pets, and make them immune to snooping, or a variation of the NPC merchant scripts ("You cannot steal from a shopkeeper!"). That will give players the appropriate grace period to learn the ropes, the facets, the rules, and all of the other nasty little details out there!
I am, of course, looking forward to the discussions that will pile up from this, both for and against!
I remember when they made stealing good on OSI, you could steal anywhere and only if someone called the guards would they come and kill the thief. People were running around towns yelling:
guards
guards
guards
guards
guards
...
non stop and you had to read peoples chat in pieces between "guards". It was pretty funny, you would recall to a bank and instantly see a screen full of spam, start lagging and crash, log back in and have your pack cleaned out. Ah, those were the days.
Good days indeed! So much nalstogia
well, i'm not a thief, nor a thief lover. but here are some thoughts and observations:
for me, one of the attractions of UO is, that although being 'simple' compared to some of the other games out there, it allows for so many differing styles of gameplay and that in part is what brought me back to UO after so many years away
a large aspect of that was, in fel rules facets, the 'thrill' for me wos to hunt thieves while trying to avoid reds ... anybody remember the now worthless skill of forensic evaluation, the profession of being a thief hunter?
and before i get flamed for being a 'red hater/thief hater' lemme say that i think reds are incredibly fun and important to the game, whether the thrill is being a red and griefing folks (and let's be clear on this point, you become red by non-consentual pvp = griefing), or trying to avoid becoming a red's next victim ... if we didn't have reds and thieves i wouldn't have come back ... if my ping wasn't usually at 800 or above i'd like ta be a red meself :twisted:
i think that not allowing stealing in luna isn't what is hurting the thieves ... it's not having a permanent fel rules facet population ... the thief thrived upon catching fel residents 'at rest' chatting, banking, shopping at player vendors etc
reds here go out and grief in fel rules facets, and then return to the safety of insula to hang out with total immunity ... reds and thieves had this wierd relationship .. almost like they needed each other .. thieves needed reds (they made up the majority of fel population) to steal from, and reds luv to hunt thieves ... anybody remember the hilarious verbal exchanges between them
when we used to have 30-40 folks on during the early days, having reds come visit tram facets made total sense ... i'd be all for reds not being allowed into tram rules facets, and thieves becoming 'perma-grey' again since the server population is large enough to make it feasible .. or would there be a way for thieves to steal from reds in tram facets, and reds be able to kill them?
bottom line is, i don't think thieves should be whittled away into non-existence
Ok so the problem is the choice of facets under the Fel Rules. Actually it is:
Trammel
Ter Mur
Tokuno
Felluca
T2A
Ilshenar
2 of the more interesting place loot-wise are Ter Mur (Mini champs) and Tokuno (Tots). T2A and Ilshenar almost have no interest for pvpers and thieves. What about switching the facets rules? Since Ter Mur is the only place for gargs to train, and since there are enough farming spots on the surface, why not turn the Abyss and the Underworld to fel rules? And since we can't get Paragon anymore from Ilsh champ, why wouldn't we drop that in Tram rules now?
I'd suggest that restructuration:
Trammel Rules
-------------
Trammel
Ilshenar
Ter Mur (Surface and Tomb)
T2A (There is no point in going at T2A except farming, let's the Pvers just farm?)
Fel Rules
-------------
Felluca
Tokuno (With the tots drop restored on the whole map so people can hunt themselves to
get them)
Ter Mur (Abyss and Underworld)
Following this ideas, the PvPers would lose Ilshenar and T2A (2 places where people DON'T hang) against some dungeons of Ter Mur and Tokuno, both islands which are heavily farmed (Well Tokuno would be if the drops were restored)
Well, what do you think about it?
It sure doesn't fit the previous perfect 3/3 facets balance, but 3.5/2.5, however there would be much more action in the 2.5 than in the actual 3
Well the world is balanced and one of the reasons players avoid Fel is so they dont have their hard earned possessions stolen, or taken from them by other means. I personally dont encourage the thief trade, much more honest to work for a living ;)
Quote2 of the more interesting place loot-wise are Ter Mur (Mini champs) and Tokuno (Tots). T2A and Ilshenar almost have no interest for pvpers and thieves. What about switching the facets rules? Since Ter Mur is the only place for gargs to train, and since there are enough farming spots on the surface, why not turn the Abyss and the Underworld to fel rules? And since we can't get Paragon anymore from Ilsh champ, why wouldn't we drop that in Tram rules now?
First you are wrong about the faucets that are tram and fel. The tram faucets are trammel, Ter Mur, and tokuno for the most part. Fel faucets are felucia, malas, and illishnear. The fel rules also apply in the tokuno mines / fan dancer dojo. T2A has both a tram and fel version therefore the champion spawns are only active in the fel version. If the abyss and underworld were turned into fel then gargoyle artifacts would be even harder to obtain for players trying to get them. Thieves can still steal doom arties from players in the guantlet, illish arties, tots from tokuno mines / dojo, and at every champion spawn.
And dleatherus non-consensual pvp is not griefing it is merely just being pked. And most don't do it to grief other players but in hopes they can spark a fight back.
Thieves in Pre-Trammel were more often than not bank leeches who sat there in a death robe, randomly stole, trying to quickly throw what ever they got into their bank before they were killed by the guards. PKers love to spout the "risk vs reward" aspect. What risk is there in this play? You don't even lose the death robe you are in.
Ok, that said, yes, I have very rarely ran into thieves in dungeons who would stealth up, take your black pearl so you couldn't recall out (before rune books) and then either attack or call in their red friends. This, although it tended to tick me off, at least involved some effort and I admired someone who could do well.
There is a reason few go to the Feluca ruleset lands. If double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there, do you think removing more of the dungeons and allowing there insured items to be stolen is going to bring them? More likely, it will discourage more from playing. Period.
And as for the discussing of is PKing griefing? I think that depends on which end of the sword you are on and if it was consensual.
Sorry, not meaning to make this a PvM vs PK thread. Each can have their place on a server with so many land options but when you start removing most of the options to force non-consensual play (be it PKing or thieving), I am afraid you will quickly start losing players. And you can say all you want that if you don't like it, go to another server but it will get pretty lonely if it is only PKers and thieves.
Deadmu5 ]
First I was right about the facets, read back the first part of my post, the second set was a set I proposed only.
Second, why would gargs have more ease than us to get arties? We have the Tram arties, which are plain shit. Then we have gauntlet (PvP), champ spawns (PvP), tokuno (Outside tuesday, pvp). All the developers would have to do is add some cheap gaunt arties to the Tram arties and we're even, Abyss and Underworld could turn to PvP. They have NO RISK zone to get their good arties, we have to face champion, tokuno or gauntlet, which all are pvp, if we want something worth it.
Jaxtron ]
The insurance system is also something which really kill thieves, but you're right about the fact that making everything ininsurable wouldn't be totally agreed with. What about some delay then? 3-5 min on every new drop before it can be insured and we're all set. One thing however I didn't understand is why they increased the resources gain but also dropped the loot gains in fel. Previously I was going to kill some Saliva in the entrance of the Blighted Grove, since they had pretty good loots (Many weapons with 2x 40 magic properties and some 12 resistance, such stuff). Now, their loot dropped dramatically, removing all interest of going into Fel anymore. So at the moment, people don't go neither in Fel, Ilsh or T2A outside if they want to go find some other pvpers which are scanning the zone. Why wouldn't it change?
A fight back? If someone is wearing pvm armor and has their keys set to pvm macros they will hardly make a good fight even if they try. So what, you provoke them to fight back just to kill them and feel better about yourself? You want to be a good pvper you got to fight other pvpers...
As far as stealing goes, it could be interesting to make reds open game in trammel towns, that would remove some of the "safe haven" they enjoy as much as the blues right now.
Im tired of having people talk about trammies this trammies that, in order to pvp properly you have to get a completely different suit half the time and set up new macros, and even then the elites will take you out 9 out of 10 times. Most people dont want to deal with the hassle and tend to stay out of the pvp areas, hows that a problem? I know, its bad because you cant run around the shard killing everyone you see hoping for the one guy whos insurance money ran out so you can loot his hard earned suit then laugh at the guy when he wants to throw his computer against a wall. Well, too bad, no soup for you.
Not trying to be a dick but I don't think you actually read my post or read your own post on which faucets are currently tram / fel.
quote from Konstantine in under shard updates:
QuoteTrammel
Trammel
Ter Mur
Tokuno
Felucca
Felucca
Malas
Ilishinar
I personally don't even have a gargoyle character since I just do not have an interest in playing them. However I will side on their behalf that they have the hardest time of anyone else on the server to even get gear. All runic kits I have ever burned on have not been for gargoyles at all and nearly all other kits on the shard have been put to the same use. Personally most gauntlet arties are worthless except for now unraveling. There are only 3 doom arties I could name that I would like. The champion spawn arties are also not really worth using either. Tram arties such as the craftable peerless arties and some of the collection arties are the best currently. And the solution is not to add new arties at all, they have already added the kathooloo spear and sand crab robe where a majority of those spawns are in tram. Fel still does drop better gear than tram and that is confirmed by Gizmo. Fel drops have a minimum of like 25 or 35% intensity to a maximum of 100% where tram can have a minimum of like 1% intensity.
We should not increase the fel zones because you will disrupt the balance on pvm vs pvp. Greater risk = greater reward should be in play always with the exception of Ter Mur. And your claim about pvp not going to t2a is invalid since there are tram and fel versions of t2a. The fel version sees action plenty of times and its the only place to get an oaks skull for the harrower.
And domos I personally do look for people to fight back when I find them. I can't speak for all pvpers since some are only able to kill absolute noobs in order to gain points but I have run into people that at least try to fight back and they are given much more respect from me than people who just bitch the whole time and want things changed in their favor.
QuoteThere is a reason few go to the Feluca ruleset lands. If double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there, do you think removing more of the dungeons and allowing there insured items to be stolen is going to bring them? More likely, it will discourage more from playing. Period.
Is fel rules not supposed to be "Greater Risk, Greater Reward"? You're correct in that most people do not go to fel rules in the first place out of fear of being PK'ed and losing what they earn. I do see where that is coming. And yet, we hear daily about people "Dropping free pandora coins" in Illishnar Spirituality. And you know who does that? PK's. PK's will circuit fel even more looking for the thieves who are quite simply, easy kills on wheels (Kind of like a mouse to the cat). The thieves will circuit fel more looking for the PK's to liberate their weapons.
The Fellucans will all be satisfied, while the ones afraid of Fel aren't affected in the slightest, as they don't travel there in the first place, since "double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there"
QuoteThe Fellucans will all be satisfied, while the ones afraid of Fel aren't affected in the slightest, as they don't travel there in the first place, since "double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there"
I am perfectly fine with Fellucans dealing with the pkers and the thieves. My concern was the discussion of moving lands and dungeons around to change what rulesets apply to what to "encourage" non-Fullucans to come to Felluca.
My first post:
QuoteOk so the problem is the choice of facets under the Fel Rules. Actually it is:
Trammel
Ter Mur
Tokuno
Felluca
T2A
Ilshenar
Then, bout this part:
QuoteWe should not increase the fel zones because you will disrupt the balance on pvm vs pvp. Greater risk = greater reward should be in play always with the exception of Ter Mur. And your claim about pvp not going to t2a is invalid since there are tram and fel versions of t2a. The fel version sees action plenty of times and its the only place to get an oaks skull for the harrower.
What I proposed is to trade Ilshenar and T2A to PvE but I forgot T2A already had the 2 facets in the game (Didn't go much in T2A Tram)
So just trading Tokuno to Fel and Ilshenar to Tram wouldn't do any harm I guess. Ilshenar is barely visited except for people farming for Paragons, and even less since the champ spawns don't drop paragon stuff anymore, and Tokuno is mostly visited for Tots which only spawn in PvP dungeons except on tuesday, so the tokuno restrictions could be removed and even beginners could go farm for tots against weak monsters now, however at a risk. We'd keep a 3tram 3fel balance.
What do you think bout this?
Oh yeah and also adding a 1 or 2 minute timer before you can insure an item so we can introduce a Pk/Apk notion in the server. You seem to forget that point: With Pkers come the Apkers, and that is a great + for the Pvpers
QuoteSo just trading Tokuno to Fel and Ilshenar to Tram wouldn't do any harm I guess. Ilshenar is barely visited except for people farming for Paragons, and even less since the champ spawns don't drop paragon stuff anymore, and Tokuno is mostly visited for Tots which only spawn in PvP dungeons except on tuesday, so the tokuno restrictions could be removed and even beginners could go farm for tots against weak monsters now, however at a risk. We'd keep a 3tram 3fel balance.
What do you think bout this?
So trading Ilshenar, which according to you has very little reason to be hunted in for Tokuno which is the only place PvM can get ToTs safely (one day a week mind you) is the plan? Seems great if you PvP.
How about this. You want Tokuno so how about we trade Malas which really doesn't have that much to hunt for and is Fel rules for Tokuno which currently is Tram rules. Of course, the Dojo and Mines would go back to Tram rules since they are technically located in Malas. You can still enable ToTs in Tokuno and the PKs can hunt their hearts out when ever they want. Us PvMs could then get ToTs and have a good time any time we want too. Of course, this would introduce even more ToTs which I thought was one of the reasons to restrict ToT drops to Tuesday outside of the dojo/mine so probably would be better to still just keep it to Tuesdays outside and all the time in the dojo/mine. I guess us PvM players can share the dojo and mine with you guys since you were so willing to share with us. We will even let you keep what you get...
Now that seems balanced to me...well, balanced for everyone, not just PvPers which I guess really is more balanced if you balance for both and not just one side... :)
Just make it so Ilshenar champions spawns drop arties once a week so you can safely hunt arts (Maybe not tots but there are nice Paragon stuff anyway), plus you can always farm them all week long safely since it would be no pvp. My idea would mean week long of arties farming possibility in Ilshenar, + improved farming on some day with champ spawns drop allowed, AND week long farming for tots but at a price, the risk of being PKed.
Doesn't it sound like a good trade? Now everyone could farm for artifacts anytime, safely in Ilsh, with risks in Tokuno.
BY THE WAY, I'm on the thief side, not the PK one, so if I want to go in Tokuno for the tots I'll also do it at a risk, either as a thief or with my GD. I'm conscious of this risk and am ready to face it since the reward is great. If I die farming them, too bad, if I die and lose a tot (Here i'll assume the 1 min timer before insuring is taken into consideration), I'll assume the consequences. You get a tot? Run and recall, wait for the timer and come back, or go into stealth and hide somewhere until the timer run out. If you'd want safe arties farming, Ilshenar would be available 24/7.
You are missing the point that most ML lands that exist are in Malas / illish which are both fel rules. The paragon arties for the most part suck but the ML arties actually have good ones. Trading illish for tram and tokuno for fel makes the ML arties easier to farm since people could camp the spiders and swoops all day. And the tokuno arties I would say are the best on the shard and even better than most doom arties. The kasa, rbc, tome of lost knowledge and stormgrip are extremely valuable and with trammy Tuesdays / farming of the tots in the selected 2 pvp zones allows people to have a chance of collecting these arties. If I ever go to doom I will unravel nearly all doom arties I get with the exception of spirit of the totem, hunters headress and maybe orny although I wouldn't even use it on any of my chars because it lacks the necessary pvp stats.
^^^ if you get an ornie sell it to me, seriously, I will loose all faith in humanity if I see someone unravel one of those.
QuoteYou are missing the point that most ML lands that exist are in Malas / illish which are both fel rules.
Malas yes, Ilsh...???? There are no ML dungeons in Ilshenar...
QuoteAnd the tokuno arties I would say are the best on the shard and even better than most doom arties.
That's why they should be in a pvp zone, the strongest stuff should mean the highest risks no?
QuoteThe kasa, rbc, tome of lost knowledge and stormgrip are extremely valuable and with trammy Tuesdays / farming of the tots in the selected 2 pvp zones allows people to have a chance of collecting these arties.
And now they could farm it anytime, anywhere in Tokuno, but with a risk
Uh.... twisted weald is in illish spirit moongate which is a major place for farming ML arties and dreadhorn. Since the tokuno arties are the best having trammy tuesday still allows the newer players an opportunity to collect them while being protected. If they knew they had a fear of always being pked while farming them I don't think they would ever risk going into fel. The strongest stuff is in a pvp zone except for Tuesday otherwise the shard would be completely ran by pks. This allows people to still farm the minors under the safety of tram rules but helps prevent people from afk farming the arties in the tokuno land mass.
Don't get me wrong I am all for pvp but not at the cost of people never being able to build a foundation in tram first.
Alright then, so what about this: Tokuno Tram rules on Tuesday and Fel rules on every other days without anymore Dungeon only restriction for Tots? So the non pvpers can go farm on tuesdays without any risks and the pvpers or these willing to take the risk of being pked can still have their chance against weaker monsters any day
Sound good?
Still will have the problem of people afk farming the tots in remote areas of tokuno where know soul would think of going to.
Don't worry, the PKs and thieves will take care of them. What kind of target do you think I prefer? Juicy targets afk with some ininsured tots on them or people running around in the hot zones?
I'm the kind of guy who WILL search the map for these juicy targets, and I bet I'm not alone ;)
deadmau5 ... been gone so couldn't reply sooner ... agree with most of what you say except for reds (and some blues) not being griefers lol ... lemme explain, and please take this reply in its full context ... and i'm happy to be corrected where needed
as i see it:
pk = player killer
pvp = player vs player
pvp falls into two categories, consensual and non-consensual
all people who engage in consensual and/or non-consensual pvp are pk'ers
consensual includes, but is not limited to: duels, guild wars, factions,
non-consensual = aggressive action initiated without consent = griefing (stealing is included in this)
the vast majority of griefers on this shard are fun awesome folks, good at what they do,helpful in various ways etc ... (some griefers, and i'm not referring to anybody on this shard in this comment, are total jerks, and it's where the association of being a griefer can have negative connotations)
in my opinion griefers (be it reds or thieves) are an ESSENTIAL and vital part of the community of the server, and i view them in nothing but a positive light ... for me personally, this server would be a dull and boring place without 'em
i fully support greater risk/greater reward, encouraging non-griefers to frequent fel rules facets, allowing greater opportunity for griefers to practice their trade, be it pk'ing or stealing
as i stated in my previous post, were i more talented and had a ping substantially better than my 400-800ping (sometimes spiking at 2000-6000), i'd luv to be a griefer myself, or a griefer hunter ... absolutely no denying that for me, it's the part of the game that has me on the edge of my seat the most
the issue at heart for me though currently, is that typically if you led a griefer (red or perma-grey) 'lifestyle', you were subject at ALL times to being griefed back in return (and this includes being non-consensually hunted by blues who by doing this, become griefers without turning red)
as we have it now, the griefers can sally forth from the safety of insula etc, do their griefing, and return smugly to the safety of tram rules, ironically engaging in non-consensual pvp only when THEY want to, which in my mind is totally counter to the whole spirit and concept of non-consensual pvp
i am 110% in support of griefing and our griefers, be they reds or thieves, and this post wosn't to bash them, but to point out the current imbalance
Since I have spent all of my time on OSI shards up until this free shard I believe that's where I just get mixed up with this griefing. On OSI I have never heard that term in my entire life and its always been blue, red, pk, pvp terms used. Reds were considered pk's but also they were known as big pvpers too. They would hang out near Yew gate and wait for blues to attack them if in guard zone or hopefully find other people not in town to attack and it was actual pvp for the most part. They would also go around pking people at champ spawns too weather they were geared for pvp or not.
Now as for reds being in Insula. I think that is extremely important to allow reds in Insula for many reasons. I for one started on this shard and if all I saw was blue people I would assume that pvp was not as big on this shard as I would enjoy. With having reds around people can see right away that pvp does exist. This also allows blue people to duel reds in a safe area where they know they can't get attacked back after the duel. If reds were all to stay in fel rule set lands then they are instantly eliminated from PVM events and all they would do is find a nice fel city to bank at and otherwise leave their red at their house. If the developers decide to randomly show up and have a little fun with people in Insula they also miss out on that since there is no other place all the reds could be and keep them from attacking each other. I feel that most of these issues will be balanced out in the future when new systems are put into place. Such as maybe a bounty system for reds or other incentives for people to want to find and kill reds.
hrmmm ... some good and valid points deadmau5 .. my responses:
we can, for the purposes of this thread, agree that griefing = non-consensual pvp and is NOT referring to idiot rez-killers, folks who kill others who are afk etc
QuoteReds were considered pk's but also they were known as big pvpers too. They would hang out near Yew gate and wait for blues to attack them if in guard zone
.. this aspect is taken away because the reds now hang out in insula
QuoteI for one started on this shard and if all I saw was blue people I would assume that pvp was not as big on this shard as I would enjoy
.. on this one i disagree with you ... potential reds would just assume the established reds are all in fel rules facets, just as they are everywhere else, and/or ask in [chat from the get go if a thriving pvp environment exists, which thankfully it does ... also when the server started, reds couldn't travel to tram facets, and that certainly didn't stop the awesome core of both pvp'ers and/or griefers from growing and prospering, as they should ... if i recall, reds at the time could only be within felucca itself (which also was incorrect, they should be allowed in ALL fel rules facets) ... since they couldn't recall anywhere the fix at the time was to allow them travel everywhere ... it's my personal opinion, now that we have the population and technical wherewithall, for reds/perma-greys to live in red/perma-grey areas
QuoteThis also allows blue people to duel reds in a safe area where they know they can't get attacked back after the duel.
... i think the point you make here is really valid and really important because it allows blues to interact with reds in a consensual way and see that reds/griefers aren't idiots/arsehats and are an awesome part of the community ... it takes away some of the stigma of 'i won't ever travel to a fel rules facet cos it's full of jerks' to 'i'm going to try my hand at taking on a red/others, or not be afraid of hunting/pvm in fel rules areas, cos the extra 'danger' is more fun/challennging/better rewards' ... oh wait .. hrmm ... they're hanging out in insula ... it's a double edged sword .. however on this one my opinion is allowing blues and reds to duel easily takes the priority .. if reds/greys were kept to fel rules facets, this is a point that would need to be incorporated so that red/blue duelling could continue to thrive ... partly addressed in the next paragraph
QuoteIf reds were all to stay in fel rule set lands then they are instantly eliminated from PVM events
... not so .. you can join a pvm event from any moongate regardless of whether you're in a tram or fel rules facet, and tram rules are in effect, making it safe for reds and blues alike
... also gizmo is working hard on an awesome pvp event system which i hear is going to just rock every pvp'ers heart, be they blue or red, and might encourage non pvp'ers to come watch and/or join in, hopefully kindling an interest to try their hand at pvp also
QuoteIf the developers decide to randomly show up and have a little fun with people in Insula they also miss out on that since there is no other place all the reds could be and keep them from attacking each other
... sorry mate, disagree with you on this one for 2 reasons:
1) they can just as easily show up in a fel area and do something fun for reds/greys
2) in my opinion some of the most fun events have been the iceblock ones held in fel rules bucs den where a wonderful game of cat and mouse occurs for a whole amusing variety of reasons ... obviously the end game is getting iceblock down and getting some of the awesome loot .. but if you invis and watch wot goes on it's brilliant!!! ... taking advantage of the fel rules and general mayhem with iceblock being so uber are: personal vendettas and scores being settled, griefers being griefers both reds and thieves, 'innocent' blues taking advantage of the chaos and griefing somebody trying to kill iceblock, guild rivalries etc etc .. i have seen and have myself sometimes participated and likewise been a 'victim' of these things and it wos great fun!!!
QuoteI feel that most of these issues will be balanced out in the future when new systems are put into place
... this one i agree with you on wholeheartedly ... we have an awesome group running and developing the server ... we all know there is NO such thing as perfect balance in UO, if there were, it'd be in place already and this conversation wouldn't be taking place
i repeat i am NOT complaining that reds are in insula ...
as strange as it may seem, my thoughts are that by 'confining' reds/perma-greys to fel rules areas it actually ENCOURAGES more regular pvp/thieving/griefing etc becos it keeps the pvp rules areas more populated, if that makes sense
i personally would like to see a ruleset restructure,
i agree with original post that ter mur is a good hunting ground and makes sense to be fel set so there is more excitement for all parties involved.
also, nothing is worse than getting pk'd in your own home which is possible in malas, given malas has the largest housing area i would suggest a rule-swap of ter mur as felset and malas as tram set so people can have their houses there without getting messed up, and all pvp pvmers get a little more excitement out of ter mur.
my 2 cents
The problem with Malas being tram is that Doom and the Dojo and Mines are the top 3 places for artifacts, which is why Malas is fel in the first place.
Turning the land to Tram, keeping Doom and the Laby Fel and the problem would be fixed
I am not sure that just setting those locations is all together the right way to handle it. If your headed out to those zones your aware of the risk (and if your not then its your own fault and you'll quickly learn)... You'll just create another 'Yew gates' session again.
A lot of good ideas for staff to read on this post :) although its turned from thieving to reds and facets lol.
Here's mine:
I dont think segregating reds and blues is the way to go. Pandora is a community made of of good/evil players, if we split the community into "reds can only be in fel facet" and so on things are gonna go downhill real fast. Ppl play a mmporg like uo to socialise, hunt with and hunt other ppl. If you dont like playing with other people i highly recommend pacman.
Interesting point about termur going fel rules, i actually agree with this one but am not sure how to even it out on the rest of the facets so probably good as is atm i guess. I know ppl hate fel because reds pk there, but tram can be just as hard to judge. You get ppl killing players in fel but also get ppl farming 24/7 in tram. Tough for staff to find an even layout.
And now to perform a little bit of Necromancy!
Uus Corp
And bam! The thread is back to life, over a year later! Discuss, fellow pandorians!
*smacks Skald around a little for reviving old posts*
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm a necromancer, what can I say? XD
But in all seriousness, I love discussions like this. As long as they don't evolve into red v. blue like it did on the last 2 pages.
Ahhh yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn
Greetings to one , greetings to all
Not too sure what i am suppose to say here except i accept the challenges and am a fine example of this so called dying race known as "Thieves"
You may think they are dead, you may think we cannot steal or rob from you, yet you are clearly mistaken, opportunity lies within ones desire and will to survive, extreme measures will surely be taken to ensure the balance is fulfilled.
I welcome any idea that will enable the Thief to have more roam and say in what is what.
Yes you may say the PVP is what holds a shard together, but it is the people whom control the lands and the minerals that in fact control it, yes you may enforce a law but if the people revolt you will be out manned and out numbered.
We are scoundrels, cast outs once favored by men now frowned upon by all
We are Thieves and will always be no matter what sanctions are implemented or restrictions i will fight till the end to ensure this race of man does not go down without a fight or empty handed :)
For now i bid you all
Good day
Heres a question mr. and mrs. thieves; Is it only inside the luna walls (and tok mine/fan dojo) that you cant steal anymore or the entire facet?
The entire facet of Malas is trammel. And the Dojo and Mines are both (for some reason) on the malas facet. As is Doom, Bedlam, and the other dungeons in the area. And we cannot steal in Trammel facets. So your belongings are safe in Malas
I am not a PvPer nor a thief , I do however agree that there is a place for both in the game . Changeing rulsets and shifting item drops will not encourage me to become a pvper or thief . I will be a Trammie and avoid pvp areas as i currently do , If all safe zones (Tram rulsets were removed I would not play). I am not saying make everything Tram either , each play style has its place . I think the current layout is reasonably fair and if you cant be a thief in the Fel rulset areas then maybe its time to change professions . People like myself will avoid the PvP areas no matter where you put them or how nice of loot you put in them .
Just my 2 cents on the matter , that and 2 bucks will get ya a cup of coffee ..... a small one lol
Understandable viewpoint. But you also have to understand that some people don't enjoy the same playstyles as others. After re-reading my initial post, I'm not even sure what was going on in my head. But regardless, It was meant as a discussion, and not a "Hey Kon, change this plz" thread.
As for the new profession statement, I'm afraid that's something I can't do. I'm drawn to it. It, to me, is like guild hunts to you (I assume that is what you enjoy? Regardless, you get the notion, I hope).
I understand your meening , although guild hunts arent really my thing either lol . I like crafting and fishing , you know the boring stuff - with a pacemaker/defibrilator - I shouldnt get too excited .
Im just saying there are people like me , who do not PvP but can see why others do . And no matter what changes are made for me PvP is totally out .
Just keep me in mind when makeing changes please .