Thieves

[Jaxtron]

So just trading Tokuno to Fel and Ilshenar to Tram wouldn't do any harm I guess. Ilshenar is barely visited except for people farming for Paragons, and even less since the champ spawns don't drop paragon stuff anymore, and Tokuno is mostly visited for Tots which only spawn in PvP dungeons except on tuesday, so the tokuno restrictions could be removed and even beginners could go farm for tots against weak monsters now, however at a risk. We'd keep a 3tram 3fel balance.

What do you think bout this?

So trading Ilshenar, which according to you has very little reason to be hunted in for Tokuno which is the only place PvM can get ToTs safely (one day a week mind you) is the plan?  Seems great if you PvP.

How about this.  You want Tokuno so how about we trade Malas which really doesn't have that much to hunt for and is Fel rules for Tokuno which currently is Tram rules.  Of course, the Dojo and Mines would go back to Tram rules since they are technically located in Malas.  You can still enable ToTs in Tokuno and the PKs can hunt their hearts out when ever they want.  Us PvMs could then get ToTs and have a good time any time we want too.  Of course, this would introduce even more ToTs which I thought was one of the reasons to restrict ToT drops to Tuesday outside of the dojo/mine so probably would be better to still just keep it to Tuesdays outside and all the time in the dojo/mine.  I guess us PvM players can share the dojo and mine with you guys since you were so willing to share with us.  We will even let you keep what you get...

Now that seems balanced to me...well, balanced for everyone, not just PvPers which I guess really is more balanced if you balance for both and not just one side...  

[DarkShade]

Just make it so Ilshenar champions spawns drop arties once a week so you can safely hunt arts (Maybe not tots but there are nice Paragon stuff anyway), plus you can always farm them all week long safely since it would be no pvp. My idea would mean week long of arties farming possibility in Ilshenar, + improved farming on some day with champ spawns drop allowed, AND week long farming for tots but at a price, the risk of being PKed.

Doesn't it sound like a good trade? Now everyone could farm for artifacts anytime, safely in Ilsh, with risks in Tokuno.

BY THE WAY, I'm on the thief side, not the PK one, so if I want to go in Tokuno for the tots I'll also do it at a risk, either as a thief or with my GD. I'm conscious of this risk and am ready to face it since the reward is great. If I die farming them, too bad, if I die and lose a tot (Here i'll assume the 1 min timer before insuring is taken into consideration), I'll assume the consequences. You get a tot? Run and recall, wait for the timer and come back, or go into stealth and hide somewhere until the timer run out. If you'd want safe arties farming, Ilshenar would be available 24/7.

[Deadmau5]

You are missing the point that most ML lands that exist are in Malas / illish which are both fel rules.  The paragon arties for the most part suck but the ML arties actually have good ones.  Trading illish for tram and tokuno for fel makes the ML arties easier to farm since people could camp the spiders and swoops all day.  And the tokuno arties I would say are the best on the shard and even better than most doom arties.  The kasa, rbc, tome of lost knowledge and stormgrip are extremely valuable and with trammy Tuesdays / farming of the tots in the selected 2 pvp zones allows people to have a chance of collecting these arties.  If I ever go to doom I will unravel nearly all doom arties I get with the exception of spirit of the totem, hunters headress and maybe orny although I wouldn't even use it on any of my chars because it lacks the necessary pvp stats.

[Domos]

^^^ if you get an ornie sell it to me, seriously, I will loose all faith in humanity if I see someone unravel one of those.

[DarkShade]

You are missing the point that most ML lands that exist are in Malas / illish which are both fel rules.

Malas yes, Ilsh...? There are no ML dungeons in Ilshenar...

And the tokuno arties I would say are the best on the shard and even better than most doom arties.

That's why they should be in a pvp zone, the strongest stuff should mean the highest risks no?

The kasa, rbc, tome of lost knowledge and stormgrip are extremely valuable and with trammy Tuesdays / farming of the tots in the selected 2 pvp zones allows people to have a chance of collecting these arties.

And now they could farm it anytime, anywhere in Tokuno, but with a risk

[Deadmau5]

Uh.... twisted weald is in illish spirit moongate which is a major place for farming ML arties and dreadhorn.  Since the tokuno arties are the best having trammy tuesday still allows the newer players an opportunity to collect them while being protected.  If they knew they had a fear of always being pked while farming them I don't think they would ever risk going into fel.  The strongest stuff is in a pvp zone except for Tuesday otherwise the shard would be completely ran by pks.  This allows people to still farm the minors under the safety of tram rules but helps prevent people from afk farming the arties in the tokuno land mass.

Don't get me wrong I am all for pvp but not at the cost of people never being able to build a foundation in tram first.

[DarkShade]

Alright then, so what about this: Tokuno Tram rules on Tuesday and Fel rules on every other days without anymore Dungeon only restriction for Tots? So the non pvpers can go farm on tuesdays without any risks and the pvpers or these willing to take the risk of being pked can still have their chance against weaker monsters any day

Sound good?

[Deadmau5]

Still will have the problem of people afk farming the tots in remote areas of tokuno where know soul would think of going to.

[DarkShade]

Don't worry, the PKs and thieves will take care of them. What kind of target do you think I prefer? Juicy targets afk with some ininsured tots on them or people running around in the hot zones?

I'm the kind of guy who WILL search the map for these juicy targets, and I bet I'm not alone

[Dleatherus]

deadmau5 ... been gone so couldn't reply sooner ... agree with most of what you say except for reds (and some blues) not being griefers lol ... lemme explain, and please take this reply in its full context ... and i'm happy to be corrected where needed

as i see it:

pk = player killer

pvp = player vs player

pvp falls into two categories, consensual and non-consensual

all people who engage in consensual and/or non-consensual pvp are pk'ers

consensual includes, but is not limited to: duels, guild wars, factions,

non-consensual = aggressive action initiated without consent = griefing (stealing is included in this)

the vast majority of griefers on this shard are fun awesome folks, good at what they do,helpful in various ways etc ... (some griefers, and i'm not referring to anybody on this shard in this comment, are total jerks, and it's where the association of being a griefer can have negative connotations)

in my opinion griefers (be it reds or thieves) are an ESSENTIAL and vital part of the community of the server, and i view them in nothing but a positive light ... for me personally, this server would be a dull and boring place without 'em

i fully support greater risk/greater reward, encouraging non-griefers to frequent fel rules facets, allowing greater opportunity for griefers to practice their trade, be it pk'ing or stealing

as i stated in my previous post, were i more talented and had a ping substantially better than my 400-800ping (sometimes spiking at 2000-6000), i'd luv to be a griefer myself, or a griefer hunter ... absolutely no denying that for me, it's the part of the game that has me on the edge of my seat the most

the issue at heart for me though currently, is that typically if you led a griefer (red or perma-grey) 'lifestyle', you were subject at ALL times to being griefed back in return (and this includes being non-consensually hunted by blues who by doing this, become griefers without turning red)

as we have it now, the griefers can sally forth from the safety of insula etc, do their griefing, and return smugly to the safety of tram rules, ironically engaging in non-consensual pvp only when THEY want to, which in my mind is totally counter to the whole spirit and concept of non-consensual pvp

i am 110% in support of griefing and our griefers, be they reds or thieves, and this post wosn't to bash them, but to point out the current imbalance

[Deadmau5]

Since I have spent all of my time on OSI shards up until this free shard I believe that's where I just get mixed up with this griefing.  On OSI I have never heard that term in my entire life and its always been blue, red, pk, pvp terms used.  Reds were considered pk's but also they were known as big pvpers too.  They would hang out near Yew gate and wait for blues to attack them if in guard zone or hopefully find other people not in town to attack and it was actual pvp for the most part.  They would also go around pking people at champ spawns too weather they were geared for pvp or not.

Now as for reds being in Insula.  I think that is extremely important to allow reds in Insula for many reasons.  I for one started on this shard and if all I saw was blue people I would assume that pvp was not as big on this shard as I would enjoy.  With having reds around people can see right away that pvp does exist.  This also allows blue people to duel reds in a safe area where they know they can't get attacked back after the duel.  If reds were all to stay in fel rule set lands then they are instantly eliminated from PVM events and all they would do is find a nice fel city to bank at and otherwise leave their red at their house.  If the developers decide to randomly show up and have a little fun with people in Insula they also miss out on that since there is no other place all the reds could be and keep them from attacking each other.  I feel that most of these issues will be balanced out in the future when new systems are put into place.  Such as maybe a bounty system for reds or other incentives for people to want to find and kill reds.

[Dleatherus]

hrmmm ... some good and valid points deadmau5 .. my responses:

we can, for the purposes of this thread, agree that griefing = non-consensual pvp and is NOT referring to idiot rez-killers, folks who kill others who are afk etc

Reds were considered pk's but also they were known as big pvpers too. They would hang out near Yew gate and wait for blues to attack them if in guard zone

.. this aspect is taken away because the reds now hang out in insula

I for one started on this shard and if all I saw was blue people I would assume that pvp was not as big on this shard as I would enjoy

.. on this one i disagree with you ... potential reds would just assume the established reds are all in fel rules facets, just as they are everywhere else, and/or ask in [chat from the get go if a thriving pvp environment exists, which thankfully it does ... also when the server started, reds couldn't travel to tram facets, and that certainly didn't stop the awesome core of both pvp'ers and/or griefers from growing and prospering, as they should ... if i recall, reds at the time could only be within felucca itself (which also was incorrect, they should be allowed in ALL fel rules facets) ... since they couldn't recall anywhere the fix at the time was to allow them travel everywhere ... it's my personal opinion, now that we have the population and technical wherewithall, for reds/perma-greys to live in red/perma-grey areas

This also allows blue people to duel reds in a safe area where they know they can't get attacked back after the duel.

... i think the point you make here is really valid and really important because it allows blues to interact with reds in a consensual way and see that reds/griefers aren't idiots/arsehats and are an awesome part of the community ... it takes away some of the stigma of 'i won't ever travel to a fel rules facet cos it's full of jerks' to 'i'm going to try my hand at taking on a red/others, or not be afraid of hunting/pvm in fel rules areas, cos the extra 'danger' is more fun/challennging/better rewards' ... oh wait .. hrmm ... they're hanging out in insula ... it's a double edged sword .. however on this one my opinion is allowing blues and reds to duel easily takes the priority .. if reds/greys were kept to fel rules facets, this is a point that would need to be incorporated so that red/blue duelling could continue to thrive ... partly addressed in the next paragraph

If reds were all to stay in fel rule set lands then they are instantly eliminated from PVM events

... not so .. you can join a pvm event from any moongate regardless of whether you're in a tram or fel rules facet, and tram rules are in effect, making it safe for reds and blues alike
... also gizmo is working hard on an awesome pvp event system which i hear is going to just rock every pvp'ers heart, be they blue or red, and might encourage non pvp'ers to come watch and/or join in, hopefully kindling an interest to try their hand at pvp also

If the developers decide to randomly show up and have a little fun with people in Insula they also miss out on that since there is no other place all the reds could be and keep them from attacking each other

... sorry mate, disagree with you on this one for 2 reasons:

1) they can just as easily show up in a fel area and do something fun for reds/greys
2) in my opinion some of the most fun events have been the iceblock ones held in fel rules bucs den where a wonderful game of cat and mouse occurs for a whole amusing variety of reasons ... obviously the end game is getting iceblock down and getting some of the awesome loot .. but if you invis and watch wot goes on it's brilliant!!! ... taking advantage of the fel rules and general mayhem with iceblock being so uber are: personal vendettas and scores being settled, griefers being griefers both reds and thieves, 'innocent' blues taking advantage of the chaos and griefing somebody trying to kill iceblock, guild rivalries etc etc  .. i have seen and have myself sometimes participated and likewise been a 'victim' of these things and it wos great fun!!!

I feel that most of these issues will be balanced out in the future when new systems are put into place

... this one i agree with you on wholeheartedly ... we have an awesome group running and developing the server ... we all know there is NO such thing as perfect balance in UO, if there were, it'd be in place already and this conversation wouldn't be taking place

i repeat i am NOT complaining that reds are in insula ...

as strange as it may seem, my thoughts are that by 'confining' reds/perma-greys to fel rules areas it actually ENCOURAGES more regular pvp/thieving/griefing etc becos it keeps the pvp rules areas more populated, if that makes sense

[Kontact]

i personally would like to see a ruleset restructure,

i agree with original post that ter mur is a good hunting ground and makes sense to be fel set so there is more excitement for all parties involved.

also, nothing is worse than getting pk'd in your own home which is possible in malas, given malas has the largest housing area i would suggest a rule-swap of ter mur as felset and malas as tram set so people can have their houses there without getting messed up, and all pvp pvmers get a little more excitement out of ter mur.

my 2 cents

[Helvinr]

The problem with Malas being tram is that Doom and the Dojo and Mines are the top 3 places for artifacts, which is why Malas is fel in the first place.

[DarkShade]

Turning the land to Tram, keeping Doom and the Laby Fel and the problem would be fixed