Thieves

[Helvinr]

Anyone else feel that the thief class has died?

Once upon a time, thieves packed the streets of banks, sifting through the belongings of bystanders. Then trammel was introduced. That put severe limits on the thief. But still we found our ways to find a pack to snoop here and there.

Then came insurance with the Age of Shadows, and that made the thief virtually extinct. But still, we had our way at times. Champion spawns, and the occasional person in Fel. But therein lies the issue. People are either dead terrified of going to fel areas, use insurance, and/or have nothing on them worth taking.

This limits it to virtually just champion spawns, commonly used dungeons such as Exodus, and Luna stealing (Since Umbra is long since unpopulated, if it ever was here in Pandora). But recently, the Luna thief has received much discrimination, to the point where it was removed all together. The innocent (And not-so-innocent!) can feel safe now, knowing that their packs are secure.

I know most of you feel that this is good. But let's think for a moment. Do we really want another mindless World of Warcraft scheme of PvP, PvM, or GTFO? Thieving is, afterall, a play style. It's about the thrill; which is what anyone plays for.

Some get a thrill from killing players (Or releasing a dragon on an AFK player...). Others get a thrill from Hunting all of the various monsters. Some get a thrill off of peeking through the belongings of others and making off with an item, weaving intricately through the crowds, around buildings, and all sorts of acrobatics to make off with the item.

And the Perma-Grey system made it that much more fun! It made disguises and disguise kits necessary, rather than just a way of robbing without having to worry about receiving many nasty death-threats from victims in a horribly misspelled, not-well-thought-out PM.

So... We've clarified that a valid play-style has been pushed onto the brink of extinction. Now to propose a way to fix it.

Really, there's one good proposition that I have to throw out, and I'm sure others have their own valid proposals to throw in. That would be to allow the theft of insured items ONLY within the Fel ruleset. We would have the same limited grounds, but all the more reason to venture forth into the lands! (Not to mention all the donations for Bank Stones and Item Bless Deeds that would be made!)

Most definitely, that will raise giant red flashing flags to anyone not in support of it already, but again, we must think.

FIRST: When you steal an item from a player, if you die within 2 minutes of the steal (Regardless of what killed you), that item will return to it's rightful owner.

SECOND: You cannot steal equipped items

THIRD: It won't impact anyone outside of the Fel Ruleset (And who really goes there anymore aside from PvP'ers and Thieves anyways?)

FOURTH: It only affects unblessed items within your backpack. (Beetles and Bank stones and Bless Deeds, Oh my!)

Alternatively, we could make theft possible in more locations (Bring back Luna stealing, robbing in select non-pvp facets, dungeons, etc.)

And before you even THINK it, I assure you I have considered the new players! Which is why I also propose immunity from theft and PvP all together for our new players still growing and preparing for the harsh world out there! I propose we completely remodel the "New" status.

We are aware that the New Player Dungeon will only allow players inside if they are 21 days or younger. What's stopping us from modifying that a little further and making it so that new (21 days and younger) players take 0 damage from players and player pets, and make them immune to snooping, or a variation of the NPC merchant scripts ("You cannot steal from a shopkeeper!"). That will give players the appropriate grace period to learn the ropes, the facets, the rules, and all of the other nasty little details out there!

I am, of course, looking forward to the discussions that will pile up from this, both for and against!

[Domos]

I remember when they made stealing good on OSI, you could steal anywhere and only if someone called the guards would they come and kill the thief. People were running around towns yelling:
guards
guards
guards
guards
guards
...
non stop and you had to read peoples chat in pieces between "guards". It was pretty funny, you would recall to a bank and instantly see a screen full of spam, start lagging and crash, log back in and have your pack cleaned out. Ah, those were the days.

[Helvinr]

Good days indeed! So much nalstogia

[Dleatherus]

well, i'm not a thief, nor a thief lover. but here are some thoughts and observations:
for me, one of the attractions of UO is, that although being 'simple' compared to some of the other games out there, it allows for so many differing styles of gameplay and that in part is what brought me back to UO after so many years away

a large aspect of that was, in fel rules facets, the 'thrill' for me wos to hunt thieves while trying to avoid reds ... anybody remember the now worthless skill of forensic evaluation, the profession of being a thief hunter?

and before i get flamed for being a 'red hater/thief hater' lemme say that i think reds are incredibly fun and important to the game, whether the thrill is being a red and griefing folks (and let's be clear on this point, you become red by non-consentual pvp = griefing), or trying to avoid becoming a red's next victim ... if we didn't have reds and thieves i wouldn't have come back ... if my ping wasn't usually at 800 or above i'd like ta be a red meself  :twisted:

i think that not allowing stealing in luna isn't what is hurting the thieves ... it's not having a permanent fel rules facet population ... the thief thrived upon catching fel residents 'at rest' chatting, banking, shopping at player vendors etc
reds here go out and grief in fel rules facets, and then return to the safety of insula to hang out with total immunity ... reds and thieves had this wierd relationship .. almost like they needed each other .. thieves needed reds (they made up the majority of fel population) to steal from, and reds luv to hunt thieves ... anybody remember the hilarious verbal exchanges between them

when we used to have 30-40 folks on during the early days, having reds come visit tram facets made total sense ... i'd be all for reds not being allowed into tram rules facets, and thieves becoming 'perma-grey' again since the server population is large enough to make it feasible .. or would there be a way for thieves to steal from reds in tram facets, and reds be able to kill them?

bottom line is, i don't think thieves should be whittled away into non-existence

[DarkShade]

Ok so the problem is the choice of facets under the Fel Rules. Actually it is:

Trammel
Ter Mur
Tokuno

Felluca
T2A
Ilshenar

2 of the more interesting place loot-wise are Ter Mur (Mini champs) and Tokuno (Tots). T2A and Ilshenar almost have no interest for pvpers and thieves. What about switching the facets rules? Since Ter Mur is the only place for gargs to train, and since there are enough farming spots on the surface, why not turn the Abyss and the Underworld to fel rules? And since we can't get Paragon anymore from Ilsh champ, why wouldn't we drop that in Tram rules now?

I'd suggest that restructuration:

Trammel Rules
-------------
Trammel
Ilshenar
Ter Mur (Surface and Tomb)
T2A (There is no point in going at T2A except farming, let's the Pvers just farm?)


Fel Rules
-------------
Felluca
Tokuno (With the tots drop restored on the whole map so people can hunt themselves to
get them)
Ter Mur (Abyss and Underworld)


Following this ideas, the PvPers would lose Ilshenar and T2A (2 places where people DON'T hang) against some dungeons of Ter Mur and Tokuno, both islands which are heavily farmed (Well Tokuno would be if the drops were restored)

Well, what do you think about it?

It sure doesn't fit the previous perfect 3/3 facets balance, but 3.5/2.5, however there would be much more action in the 2.5 than in the actual 3

[King Lorcain]

Well the world is balanced and one of the reasons players avoid Fel is so they dont have their hard earned possessions stolen, or taken from them by other means. I personally dont encourage the thief trade, much more honest to work for a living  

[Deadmau5]

2 of the more interesting place loot-wise are Ter Mur (Mini champs) and Tokuno (Tots). T2A and Ilshenar almost have no interest for pvpers and thieves. What about switching the facets rules? Since Ter Mur is the only place for gargs to train, and since there are enough farming spots on the surface, why not turn the Abyss and the Underworld to fel rules? And since we can't get Paragon anymore from Ilsh champ, why wouldn't we drop that in Tram rules now?

First you are wrong about the faucets that are tram and fel.  The tram faucets are trammel, Ter Mur, and tokuno for the most part.  Fel faucets are felucia, malas, and illishnear.  The fel rules also apply in the tokuno mines / fan dancer dojo.  T2A has both a tram and fel version therefore the champion spawns are only active in the fel version.  If the abyss and underworld were turned into fel then gargoyle artifacts would be even harder to obtain for players trying to get them.  Thieves can still steal doom arties from players in the guantlet, illish arties, tots from tokuno mines / dojo, and at every champion spawn.

And dleatherus non-consensual pvp is not griefing it is merely just being pked.  And most don't do it to grief other players but in hopes they can spark a fight back.

[Jaxtron]

Thieves in Pre-Trammel were more often than not bank leeches who sat there in a death robe, randomly stole, trying to quickly throw what ever they got into their bank before they were killed by the guards.  PKers love to spout the "risk vs reward" aspect.  What risk is there in this play?  You don't even lose the death robe you are in.

Ok, that said, yes, I have very rarely ran into thieves in dungeons who would stealth up, take your black pearl so you couldn't recall out (before rune books) and then either attack or call in their red friends.  This, although it tended to tick me off, at least involved some effort and I admired someone who could do well.

There is a reason few go to the Feluca ruleset lands.  If double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there, do you think removing more of the dungeons and allowing there insured items to be stolen is going to bring them?  More likely, it will discourage more from playing.  Period.  

And as for the discussing of is PKing griefing?  I think that depends on which end of the sword you are on and if it was consensual.

Sorry, not meaning to make this a PvM vs PK thread.  Each can have their place on a server with so many land options but when you start removing most of the options to force non-consensual play (be it PKing or thieving), I am afraid you will quickly start losing players.  And you can say all you want that if you don't like it, go to another server but it will get pretty lonely if it is only PKers and thieves.

[DarkShade]

Deadmu5 ]
First I was right about the facets, read back the first part of my post, the second set was a set I proposed only.

Second, why would gargs have more ease than us to get arties? We have the Tram arties, which are plain shit. Then we have gauntlet (PvP), champ spawns (PvP), tokuno (Outside tuesday, pvp). All the developers would have to do is add some cheap gaunt arties to the Tram arties and we're even, Abyss and Underworld could turn to PvP. They have NO RISK zone to get their good arties, we have to face champion, tokuno or gauntlet, which all are pvp, if we want something worth it.

Jaxtron ]
The insurance system is also something which really kill thieves, but you're right about the fact that making everything ininsurable wouldn't be totally agreed with. What about some delay then? 3-5 min on every new drop before it can be insured and we're all set. One thing however I didn't understand is why they increased the resources gain but also dropped the loot gains in fel. Previously I was going to kill some Saliva in the entrance of the Blighted Grove, since they had pretty good loots (Many weapons with 2x 40 magic properties and some 12 resistance, such stuff). Now, their loot dropped dramatically, removing all interest of going into Fel anymore. So at the moment, people don't go neither in Fel, Ilsh or T2A outside if they want to go find some other pvpers which are scanning the zone. Why wouldn't it change?

[Domos]

A fight back? If someone is wearing pvm armor and has their keys set to pvm macros they will hardly make a good fight even if they try. So what, you provoke them to fight back just to kill them and feel better about yourself? You want to be a good pvper you got to fight other pvpers...
As far as stealing goes, it could be interesting to make reds open game in trammel towns, that would remove some of the "safe haven" they enjoy as much as the blues right now.
Im tired of having people talk about trammies this trammies that, in order to pvp properly you have to get a completely different suit half the time and set up new macros, and even then the elites will take you out 9 out of 10 times. Most people dont want to deal with the hassle and tend to stay out of the pvp areas, hows that a problem? I know, its bad because you cant run around the shard killing everyone you see hoping for the one guy whos insurance money ran out so you can loot his hard earned suit then laugh at the guy when he wants to throw his computer against a wall. Well, too bad, no soup for you.

[Deadmau5]

Not trying to be a dick but I don't think you actually read my post or read your own post on which faucets are currently tram / fel.  

quote from Konstantine in under shard updates:

Trammel
Trammel
Ter Mur
Tokuno

Felucca
Felucca
Malas
Ilishinar

I personally don't even have a gargoyle character since I just do not have an interest in playing them.  However I will side on their behalf that they have the hardest time of anyone else on the server to even get gear.  All runic kits I have ever burned on have not been for gargoyles at all and nearly all other kits on the shard have been put to the same use.  Personally most gauntlet arties are worthless except for now unraveling.  There are only 3 doom arties I could name that I would like.  The champion spawn arties are also not really worth using either.  Tram arties such as the craftable peerless arties and some of the collection arties are the best currently.  And the solution is not to add new arties at all, they have already added the kathooloo spear and sand crab robe where a majority of those spawns are in tram.  Fel still does drop better gear than tram and that is confirmed by Gizmo.  Fel drops have a minimum of like 25 or 35% intensity to a maximum of 100% where tram can have a minimum of like 1% intensity.

We should not increase the fel zones because you will disrupt the balance on pvm vs pvp.  Greater risk = greater reward should be in play always with the exception of Ter Mur.  And your claim about pvp not going to t2a is invalid since there are tram and fel versions of t2a.  The fel version sees action plenty of times and its the only place to get an oaks skull for the harrower.

And domos I personally do look for people to fight back when I find them.  I can't speak for all pvpers since some are only able to kill absolute noobs in order to gain points but I have run into people that at least try to fight back and they are given much more respect from me than people who just bitch the whole time and want things changed in their favor.

[Helvinr]

There is a reason few go to the Feluca ruleset lands. If double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there, do you think removing more of the dungeons and allowing there insured items to be stolen is going to bring them? More likely, it will discourage more from playing. Period.

Is fel rules not supposed to be "Greater Risk, Greater Reward"? You're correct in that most people do not go to fel rules in the first place out of fear of being PK'ed and losing what they earn. I do see where that is coming. And yet, we hear daily about people "Dropping free pandora coins" in Illishnar Spirituality. And you know who does that? PK's. PK's will circuit fel even more looking for the thieves who are quite simply, easy kills on wheels (Kind of like a mouse to the cat). The thieves will circuit fel more looking for the PK's to liberate their weapons.

The Fellucans will all be satisfied, while the ones afraid of Fel aren't affected in the slightest, as they don't travel there in the first place, since "double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there"

[Jaxtron]

The Fellucans will all be satisfied, while the ones afraid of Fel aren't affected in the slightest, as they don't travel there in the first place, since "double the resources/gold/artifacts/etc isn't enough to encourage others to come there"

I am perfectly fine with Fellucans dealing with the pkers and the thieves.  My concern was the discussion of moving lands and dungeons around to change what rulesets apply to what to "encourage" non-Fullucans to come to Felluca.

[DarkShade]

My first post:

Ok so the problem is the choice of facets under the Fel Rules. Actually it is:

Trammel
Ter Mur
Tokuno

Felluca
T2A
Ilshenar

Then, bout this part:

We should not increase the fel zones because you will disrupt the balance on pvm vs pvp. Greater risk = greater reward should be in play always with the exception of Ter Mur. And your claim about pvp not going to t2a is invalid since there are tram and fel versions of t2a. The fel version sees action plenty of times and its the only place to get an oaks skull for the harrower.

What I proposed is to trade Ilshenar and T2A to PvE but I forgot T2A already had the 2 facets in the game (Didn't go much in T2A Tram)

So just trading Tokuno to Fel and Ilshenar to Tram wouldn't do any harm I guess. Ilshenar is barely visited except for people farming for Paragons, and even less since the champ spawns don't drop paragon stuff anymore, and Tokuno is mostly visited  for Tots which only spawn in PvP dungeons except on tuesday, so the tokuno restrictions could be removed and even beginners could go farm for tots against weak monsters now, however at a risk. We'd keep a 3tram 3fel balance.

What do you think bout this?

[DarkShade]

Oh yeah and also adding a 1 or 2 minute timer before you can insure an item so we  can introduce a Pk/Apk notion in the server. You seem to forget that point: With Pkers come the Apkers, and that is a great + for the Pvpers